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Tuesday, 9 November 2004
What if The Lancet is Correct?
SIAW have posted an interesting and constructive comment on my Daily Moider (two down) on the Lancet report. Read the lot, but amongst the points they make is the following:

... we doubt whether any human being really makes judgements about war, peace and other big issues solely on the basis of cool, rational, objective cost-benefit analysis.

Well, they do and they don't. SIAW themselves, in a rather cost-benefit manner, go on to discuss the blood toll price of leaving the Saddam dynasty in place. This raises the question of whether - if the Lancet estimate of 100,000 dead, mostly civilian - is broadly correct, the invasion was still justified. This is the spirit in which I have been discussing the report.

Let's put the case at the strongest: imagine that a tolerably democratic regime does stabilise in Iraq, and as a consequence there is a domino effect of democratisation spreading across the Middle East. This, after all, is the Neo-Con vision (if you also factor in militant free marketeering). Would this justify 100,000 more or less innocent dead?

I think not. War rightly has a high 'just-cause' and 'just-waging' thresh-hold. In the absence of a serious WMD threat - and it's clear now that the pre-war intelligence only allowed for preventative war by making patently unreasonable 'worst case' assumptions - there was no 'national security' case for war. The war, at best, was pre-emptive, which is illegal for sound reasons.

There was a humanitarian case, to be sure, but this is occluded if the 1000,000 dead estimate is correct. Saddam's genocide is believed to have killed some 300,000, but the Coalition's war was not calculated to stop this in its tracks as it was not on-going. 100,000 victims is disproportionate as collateral damage in a punitive action, as should be self-evident. It is true that Saddam's murderers were a clear danger to their own people, but this could have been met by a country-wide no-fly zone, smart sanctions and a stated intention of striking if mass killings re-started. There's no doubt that such a containment model was not ideal, but it now seems to compare well with the humanitarian cost of invasion.

My view has been that war, in shattering the institutions of tyranny, provided opportunity for democratic structures to consolidate. This was, and remains, true. One's hope is that something tolerable will emerge from the January elections. But this was never a sufficient case for war in itself. It was a kind of revolutionary defeatism, in which it was legitimate to welcome Saddam's fall. But, it will be noted, that in the classic case of revolutionary defeatism - the Liberal-Left's hope for Tsarism's defeat at the hands of Japan in 1905 - there was no assumption that Japan's war had to be defended in itself. Wars, both good and ill, often provide opportunities for democratisation, but this has never intrinsically justified them. Progressive politics is not tied to defending state calculations simply because of the opportunities they may provide.

There is a moral question here. At the time of the Iraqi prison torture revelations the point was often made that torture is counter-productive in combating insurgency. I doubt this as fact (it seemed to work pretty well for the French in the Battle for Algiers), but the argument misses the point. Torture, and with it the mass killing of non-combatants, is repugnant because it is anti-human. A war that is not forced upon a belligerent, and which unleashes disproportionate human cost, cannot be justified even if it creates potential for liberation in broad swathes of society. This is not to say that progressives should not work to realise emancipatory impulses, but they should also decry the war which heralds barbarism. Even if the whole of the Middle East goes democratic as a consequence of war, the Coalition will still have committed a horrible mistake in igniting a war that extinguished 100,000 lives. To this extent, I do reject crude utilitarianism.

I acknowledge that the jury is still out on the Lancet Report, but it seems to me to meet a thresh-hold of credibility that forces one to consider the consequences of it being broadly correct (just as Normblog legitimately requires of war opponents troubling doubts over reports of Iranian jubilation at Bush's election success, though based upon reports apparently much more dubious than the Lancet).

I much prefer to believe that the costs of the Iraq war were sufficiently low to justify it both as doing in a wicked tyranny and as a world historic gamble on emancipation. But I think it's incumbent on us all (and from SIAW's obiter dicta I think they will agree) to revise our attitudes in the light of news welcome or otherwise. It is not consistency of conclusion that matters, it is consistency in analysis.


Posted by marcmulholland at 10:36 AM GMT | Post Comment | View Comments (17) | Permalink
Updated: Tuesday, 9 November 2004 10:48 AM GMT

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 11:35 AM GMT

Name: siaw

Errrmmm ... OK, points taken, with special commendation for the last paragraph in particular. We much prefer acknowledgements that the future is unknowable, and that all political and moral decisions therefore have an element of gambling about them, than the claims of all too many of the "anti-war" crowd - and, to be fair, of some neocons and others on the "pro-war" side - to have absolutely perfect knowledge of past, present and future alike. But doubtless that's just another of our irrational prejudices ...

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 1:01 PM GMT

Name: marcmulholland

Quite right.

The future is unknowable, which is why it's morally more important to get the past right.

Rest assured that I'm not going to join the 'Yanks can do no right' brigade. Afghanistan, at least, has worked out as well as one would have hoped.

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 2:09 PM GMT

Name: Chris Bertram
Home Page: http://www.crookedtimber.org

You are far too kind to them Mark. Their comment includes the following: that '"dsquared" and Lenny Goebbels both rushed to endorse it enthusiastically counts heavily against it too.'

In fact, as a cursory examination of Crooked Timber would have revealed, dsquared did not endorse the report, enthusiastically or otherwise. He explicitly warns against the unreliability of statistical extrapolation. What he does do, and very effectively too, is too expose the mistakes made by many of the Lancet's critics (see Chris Lightfoot on this too).

Another point that's highly relevant here is that the large numbers of deaths attributed to Saddam are *also* the result of statistical extrapolation (rather than counting bodies). This is OK, with the appropriate health warnings. What SIAW do is to rely on such extrapolation when it suits their case but cry foul when it comes up with numbers they don't like.

As for "enthusiastic endorsement", one might expect higher standards of reading and comprehension from people employed as professional copyeditors ....

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 3:51 PM GMT

Name: Madradin Ruad

"Afghanistan, at least, has worked out as well as one would have hoped."

I'm not trained in any way in political theory - How can you say that Afghanistan has worked out as well as one would have hoped ? Was the best we could hope for that Warlords take over the country and poppy production increases ?

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 4:20 PM GMT

Name: marcmulholland

My kindness is often remarked upon!

I'm not really surprised by SIAW's assaults on Lenin's Tomb, but am a bit more perplexed by their hostility to the estimable D2 (and CT).

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 4:42 PM GMT

Name: marcmulholland

Hi Madradin,

The first ever national election is better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick, as they say. I don't have particularly strenuous objections to poppies or their derivatives.

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 5:03 PM GMT

Name: Rob

I suppose there is More Joy in Heaven When One Repenteth.

Personally, I would have thought that the calculation as to whether this was a Good Thing was more complex than a utilitarian counting up of the bodies. Indeed, anyone who thought that this was going to work out well in terms of relative numbers of corpses was, well, a bit thick.

At least this Daily Mither doesn't have any ludicrous comparisons with the North of ireland, unlike the previous one.

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 5:14 PM GMT

Name: marcmulholland

Oh Gaaaaawwwwd!

Shouldn't you be off setting up a blog on Yorkshire or something?

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 5:31 PM GMT

Name: Rob

Your Apology for Your Life was so moving that I thought I'd better leave you alone for a bit.

I am not quite sure what to think about your recantation. On the one hand, a Damascene conversion can be evidence of a mature ability to change one's mind rather than stick to one's guns, when your position becomes ludicrous.

On the other, you still adopt a fairly grotesque utilitarian approach. You seemed to think that the invasion was 'worth a punt' depending on the body count, but are now prepared to accept that the price was too high. I am dubious about the morality of gambling with other people's money (or lives).

(I enjoy the stuff on the N of I. It is the silly parallels which annoy. It is your blog to say what you want, but if you are going to allow comments....)

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 6:00 PM GMT

Name: marcmulholland

I try to be evidenced based on these things. All policy decisions are gambles - Afghanistan might have ended up a bloody mess (still might, I suppose), as with Kosovo etc. Cost-Benefit has its uses but, as my post stated 'I do reject crude utilitarianism'.

I do allow comments, but don't thereby grant a free ride for what sounds too often like sneering. I respect your opinions, which are sensible, but they're not so rare or original that I feel I should ignore the tone of them.

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 6:19 PM GMT

Name: Rob

Well it still looks pretty utilitarian to me.

75,000 civilian dead = Good War
100,000 civilian dead = Bad War

Law and rules set out ex ante should determine whether a war is a Good Thing, rather than an attempt to weigh the incommensurable (100,000 dead v. Freedom to Vote) on a case by case basis.

(I must have missed the 'No Sneering About the North or Ireland' Rule. Perhaps you should have a banner?)

Tuesday, 9 November 2004 - 11:17 PM GMT

Name: Chris Williams

Without a major injection of sanity into the War On (some) Drugs, which does not look at all likely, lots more poppy derivatives is going to make the district where I live (and I imagine many other districts) a worse place to be for everyone in it.

A price worth paying? Possibly, but it needs to be factored into the cost/benefit calculations, rather than brushed aside. Yeah, sure, controlled heroin addiction with decent needle exchanges isn't the worst addiction to have by any means. But that's not what's on offer.

On the other hand, I'm impressed by the way that Marc is considering this question, up to the point of being rather annoyed that he seems to have left the pro-war camp. I want a reasonable pro-war leftist I can argue with.

In any case, is freedom ever worth dying for? Quite possibly: let's wheel on World War Two or the Spanish Revolution as relevant examples. Is it worth killing for? Less easy, but again, there are arguments in favour. See the two mid C20th examples again.

Marc, you seem to be conducting this argument not in terms of political liberation, but in simple humanitarian ones: of competing body-count. If peace is less murderous than war, then we must support peace, no matter what other outcomes - for liberty and the pursuit of happiness - are tied up in each of these outcomes. Is that your position, or is there also a 'freedom factor' to be considered?

Wednesday, 10 November 2004 - 3:35 AM GMT

Name: siaw

Marc - What with The Smoking Room, Teachers, and Matthau and Lemmon in Out to Sea, watching telly seemed a lot more attractive than descending into the blogosphere on Tuesday evening. Hence the slightly mad hour at which this comment is being posted.
We considered availing once more of your kindness to respond in detail to Chris Bertram?s characteristically weaselish and defamatory remarks, notably (for fun) to point out the typos in his comment, and (in all seriousness) to wonder whether the ?dsquared? who has repeatedly extolled the virtues of the Lancet report at Harry?s Place [*] is some other loudmouth who just happens to have the same silly nom d?internet as Bertram?s chum. But then we thought: Nah, life?s too short, why bother? The smug self-assurance of the Crooked Timber Wolves is so vast that nothing we could say could begin to dent it. It's still fun now and then to point and laugh at them, but this time we'll pass. (Also, if we went into any more detail, your nemesis Rob would probably complain about us taking up too much space here engaging in pointless inter-blog scrapping - and he?d have a point too.)
By the way, what's Bertram doing here at all? Shouldn't he be up in London, joining the thousands, no, hundreds, no, tens of other "Stoppers" seeking to defend Fallujah, presumably by telepathic means?
As for CT being ?estimable?, come, come, Marc, you?ve spent too much time inside the belly of the academic beast. Step outside and you might see just what it is about academics of the CT type that - unfairly enough - gives all you poor academics a bad name among so many of those who, more or less willingly, pay your salaries. In brief, the difference is that, while you don?t need anyone to quote you Cromwell?s line about the bowels of Christ, Bertram & Co. do.
As for Chris Williams?s plaintive claim that he ?want[s] a reasonable pro-war leftist I can argue with?, bah, humbug: we know from recent experience at 4 Glengate that what he really wants is leftists of any kind - the more gullible the better - whom he can try to impress with what he fondly imagines is his superior grasp of exotic historical analogies, while the human beings who are the ostensible topics of such arid exercises in adolescent point-scoring figure nowhere.

PS You (and/or Rob) might be interested in - or at least mildly amused by - this blog?s distinctive, definitely not academic and (even for us) slightly too foul-mouthed perspective on matters Irish: http://twentymajor.blogspot.com/.

[*] Q.v. for ?Brownie??s cogent replies to ?dsquared? and other ?Stoppers? (notably under the post ?Guess who?s Happy at Bush?s Victory??, 9 Nov.), assuming that you want to go on with this Lancet thing even after most people, curiously enough, seem to have moved on ...

Blimey, that went on longer than intended. Oh well: so it goes.

Wednesday, 10 November 2004 - 11:30 AM GMT

Name: Marc

Hi SIAW,

I thought that D2 had the better of it in the debate with Brownie. I can't really judge the accuracy of these surveys myself, but I think the case has been made that the article has to be treated not as gospel truth but as credible.

By the way, why did the HP discussion have to take place in a thread not about the Lancet article? Why have they not head-lined on the subject? Or Normblog, for that matter? As I say, I think it's to your credit that you did openly post on the Lancet article.

Libery, sometimes, means honestly confronting what one doesn't want to hear.

Wednesday, 10 November 2004 - 6:52 PM GMT

Name: ChrisB

Indeed - congrats on pointing up Fisherblogs perusal of Norm Geras' sources on Iranian attitudes to Bush' election victory, the article rang some odd notes for me too. I sometimes wonder where the critical faculties of the reformed ex-marxist left have got to, then the phrase 'old dogs, new tricks' arises.

As in SIAW's reaction to the Lancet report and more notably the decision not to post on it all - bar comments boxes - at Harry's, dare I say that we are looking at a case that lies somewhere between groupthink and the dishonesty of the propagandist.

Certainly any site owner has the right to choose what they post, but those who claim to be part of a wider debate expose themselves to suspicions that they are engaged in a narrow ideological crusade by ommitting to discuss relevant material which questions their viewpoint.

Without getting into the specifics of the Lancet Report it is lent credibility not least by the last six months or so's bizarre mis-match between reports (independent, mainstream media and openly partisan) coming out of Iraq and casualty estimates which have remained relatively fixed during a period of intense violence.

It appeared that there might be an unspoken move toward a 'one dead Iraqi is one less insurgent' mindset starting to predominate as relatively well-reported casualties mounted, unknown or unnamed bodies regularly turned up in the streets and 'unresolved' fatal incidents at checkpoints multiplied in a climate of worsening violence and increasing lawlessness (kidnappings of Iraqis is another undiscussed but well-reported, if you look, issue) - meanwhile casualty estimates for the Iraqi civilian populace remained relatively stable. One had to assume therefore that an increasing number of the apparent dead were starting to be treated as combatants.

There is of course a corollary here - perhaps they were, or at the least were believed to be, possibly by all sides - which is indeed a rub that on a much smaller scale you will be familiar with from your Northern Irish perspective.

A further issue which is rarely discussed is how many Iraqis are currently in military prisons run by the coalition and what the procedure for dealing with this is. Now and in future will, indeed, they all remain in Iraq?

The National state of emergency also bodes ill in this area.

As Riverbend commented on this issue, "Allawi declared a "State of Emergency" a couple of days ago... A state of emergency *now* - because previous to this week, we Iraqis were living in an American made Utopia, as the world is well aware. So what does an "Emergency State" signify for Iraqis? Basically, it means we are now *officially* more prone to being detained, raided, and just generally abused by our new Iraqi forces and American ones."

While this is a partisan view, the point is valid. Equally the assessment of whether the Iraq War was 'a good idea' as timed and carried out (and my view has always been that it would not be and that it was not) must be based not just on casualties in Iraq but also on its wider effects. However, even looking narrowly at Iraq we must be broader than casualties to date.

While the future is indeed unknowable it is worth asking whether the chances were ever realistically good in the short term for a stable democratic representative outcome with positive geopolitical impacts as a result of a violent and badly planned occupation followed by the installation of a highly partisan infrastructure and the commencement of the distribution of national resources prior to any national democratic representation, stability or re-establishment of a working state.

Far likelier is a failed and divided state ruled by warlords, like Afghanistan, or perhaps even more likely an oppressive police state fighting a low level civil war for years to come. Either way our continued involvement becomes increasingly complicated and the wider impacts become increasingly negative. There is also the very complex issue of the Kurdish areas relationship to the increasingly dangerous situation in Iraq/the rest of Iraq.

There is a very real risk that they will also start to see negative effects, over and above the violence they are currently experiencing; and that at some point they will once again have to re-establish the pre-war periods de facto separation from Iraqi administration and determine exactly where the border they will be defending lies.

It is quite possible that they will feel the need to do this on a more permanent basis, for the good of the people of those areas as they see it. This will produce another quandary.

Above all the war lacked a plan to destroy Saddam's regime, stabilise the country and get out, precisely because it sought to achieve more than that. The fact that the plan for achieving more than that was almost as lacking as the one which some who supported the war appeared to believe in, is an irrelevance.

In a sense your comments about the 'high just cause and just waging threshold' indicate that you have in any case moved toward a more critical analysis than hitherto. However the important thing always seemed to be that the nature and timing of the war would lead to a 'threshold crossing' cost.

This was always my basis for an assessment of its ill-advisedness. It is the refusal of the pro-war left to engage with this 'reality-based' assessment in favour of a 'new reality'/ideology-based discourse which above all has poisoned the discourse and made the debate almost impossible. Question their ideology-based view and you are opposed to liberating Iraqi trade unionists etc.

In fact the majority of the non-opportunist and non-isolationist opposition to the invasion was based on such assessments.

It appears that if you don't mind me saying so you have crossed from the camp of ideology. Above all your point that there is a 'moral question' is key, as you put it: "Torture, and with it the mass killing of non-combatants, is repugnant because it is anti-human. A war that is not forced upon a belligerent, and which unleashes disproportionate human cost, cannot be justified even if it creates potential for liberation in broad swathes of society."

The ideologists of the pro-war left and the neo-con right both make the mistake of ignoring this human, or moral, dimension - this is an intensely old-thinking, Twentieth Century mistake - we expect it from the right and oddly the right expect it from the left - but the left such as it exists really shouldn't have to hear it from the left anymore and especially not from a sector of the left which is first in the queue to beat its chest over its own past mistakes in supporting the gulag as the liberator of the victims of nazi-ism; and more pertinently perhaps as the liberator of the victims of colonialism through proxy wars across the third world.

The fact that there is still a section of the left which thinks good can come out of the uncritical backing of the foreign policy adventures of a flawed national regime which aspires to re-make the world in its own image, or to its own agenda, is intensely depressing.

Whatever their quibbles now, this has been their agenda, back freedom, let us re-make the middle east. It was never going to be that simple - which may be a long way of saying that I find it easier to applaud your current utilitarianism than their ideology and failure to engage with unpalatable truths.

Sorry that's long but Norm Geras Iranian thing was just wierd... and actually a bit scary, if its possible to be scared by this kind of stuff anymore (answer: yes).

Wednesday, 10 November 2004 - 7:00 PM GMT

Name: ChrisB
Home Page: http://chrismbailey@hotmail.com

For another perspective on democracy, conflicting information and Iranians, Nobel Prize winner Shiran Ebadi is taking legal action (against the US government) to have her book published in the USA.

'Ms Ebadi said in her suit that blocking the publication of her memoirs in the US would be a "critical missed opportunity both for Americans to learn more about my country and its people from a variety of Iranian voices and for a better understanding to be achieved between our two countries".'

- its banned you see essentially because its by a non-exiled Iranian (like stuff from Cuba etc). Freedom and open debate etc...

More from the BBC at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3974099.stm

Friday, 12 November 2004 - 1:17 AM GMT

Name: Iain J Coleman
Home Page: http://www.iainjcoleman.net/mrhappy/

There's a lot of merit in your atricle, but one big mistake. You compare the 100,000 figure to the murders attributed to Saddam Hussein. But that 100,000 is the excess deaths over and above the death rate under Saddam in the pre-invasion period. If deposing Saddam was of some utilitarian good, that number should be less than zero, not 100,000. The Lancet study argues that there are about 100,000 more people dead now than there would have been if we had left Saddam to his tyranny. It's a pretty high price to pay for turning a dictatorship into an anarchy.

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